Why Cookies Won’t Work

00:00

Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered. Trigger warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the truth in dog training.

Hey everybody, Kati Peppe of Diamond K9 Dog Training here, and welcome to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. Um, so today I will be doing my podcast with our lovely neighborly dance studio operating in the background <laugh>. So that wasn't really my plan. Um, but they started up a little bit earlier than I think they usually do. And so they're over there dancing and singing and doing all kinds of fun things, which is great, but you're, you might hear it, so <laugh>, I apologize. I hope it's not too distracting. Um, but I really wanted to get this recorded.

01:00 — Kati introduces why cookies do not always work, connecting the topic to correcting her…

I, I'm excited to do my next episode. So here I am doing it anyway, so I'm not gonna let a little dance music stop me. Um, I thought today maybe we should talk about why cookies don't always work. I think that ties in nicely with the first episode that I did, kind of talking about my devil puppy <laugh> I had, um, and how hard it was for me to find the information that I needed to correct her and how I needed to correct her if I was going to inhibit behaviors.

So, and I use the word correct most of the time. Um, there's lots of words for it. So you can say correction, you can say punishment. Um, sometimes either of those things can be a form of negative reinforcement. I don't use that term a lot. Um, there is a reason for that. Number one, it's super sciencey, which is fine. I love science. Um, however, those terms that they created don't really have a clear definition. I mean, they do and they don't. If you ask somebody, they can give you a clear definition. I can give you a clear definition, but the truth is that all the definitions actually kind of overlap <laugh>, and I don't really wanna get into that today.

So negative reinforcement is when you remove something that increases a behavior, right? But the truth is, every time you increase a behavior, you also decrease a behavior.

So if you think about it too much, it will hurt your brain <laugh>. At any rate, my point is, if you don't provide your dog with unpleasant consequences, you will struggle to stop and inhibit behaviors. That's what you need to know, and that is our takeaway from today's episode. No, but really, um, why cookies don't always work, so they sound good, right? And I totally get that. Um, I also prefer rewarding dogs and doing things that are fun and seeing the dogs get enthusiastic and all of these things. Um, cookies are easier and they are more fun.

But you saw that coming, didn't you? <laugh>, but it just doesn't work when we're talking about eliminating behaviors. Um, and so let's talk a little bit about why that is and why that really should be kind of obvious. So, you know, we have a lot of people that are supposed to be professionals and organizations that are supposed to be comprised of knowledgeable, experienced professionals that are saying, this is how you stop behaviors.

You use cookies, right? You use distractions, you redirect your dog, or you ignore the bad behavior, or blah, blah, blah, blah. And the fact is that doesn't work most of the time, right? So there's my little disclaimer. So I'm not a big black-and-white person. I've already said that before. I believe most things exist on a continuum, on a spectrum of some kind. Behavior certainly does. Consequences certainly do. And dogs' genetics make a huge difference as well. So is there a chance if your dog has a crappy behavior that you don't like, is there a chance that you could just ignore that behavior and it will go away?

Yeah, of course. Okay. There's also a chance that I could just wake up in the morning and there'll be a new Lamborghini in my driveway. It's slim, but there's a chance. <laugh>, there's always a chance, okay?

Is there a chance that if my dog jumps on people and I spend a lot of time doing a lot of repetition with him on a leash, teaching him how to sit when he greets people, is there a chance that he'll start choosing to sit instead of jumping? Yeah, there's a chance. And again, <laugh>, there's a chance I'm gonna wake up in the morning to a new car in my driveway. So sure, guys, like sometimes those things might work. Um, but honestly, I think if they do, it's probably a coincidence. And it was probably just a natural sort of evolution for your dog.

05:00 — Kati uses broccoli and chocolate cake to argue that teaching an alternative behavior does…

It probably, <laugh> doesn't have a ton to do, um, with teaching them these alternative behaviors because alternative behaviors don't stop other behaviors. So I think it's important to really think about that. For instance, if I'm presented with broccoli and chocolate cake, you can teach me to eat broccoli, but I'm still going to eat chocolate cake.

Even if I choose to eat the broccoli, I'm probably still going to eat the chocolate cake, right? So teaching me to eat broccoli is not going to prevent me from eating chocolate cake. Okay? Doesn't that make sense, <laugh>? Of course it does. So if you have a job and you think of your workplace, okay, how would things go, do you think, if there were no negative consequences for anything, right? Maybe, maybe the only negative consequence was just that they removed incentives, right? They, they removed some incentive for like good attendance or, you know, you name it.

But there were no outright negative consequences, only positive things, only rewards, only bonuses.

How would things go? How would that look? I can tell you how it would look in the places that I worked. It would be a shit show. <laugh>. It would not go well. Okay? So again, common sense. So when you teach a dog to do a behavior, they do become more likely to practice that behavior. But do they become just as likely not to practice the other behavior? And the answer is no, not really. So some dogs, you might get a little bit of traction with that. Uh, with most dogs, you're not gonna get any, okay?

What will happen is they're either gonna be really excited, so they're just gonna choose their old behavior instead of the new one you taught them. 'Cause that's the other thing you have to consider, is their arousal level. When your dog's excited, they do what comes reflexively, um, and, and naturally, and they don't think as clearly, and they don't, um, resist impulses as well, and, and all this stuff, right? So your dog gets excited and everything you taught them is gonna go out the window, and that's normal. So <laugh>.

So it's highly likely that you're gonna kind of get stuck in a place where you've taught your dog all this new stuff, but they still do all the old stuff that you don't like, and that is no good. So you have to learn how to correct your dog. Yes, the music over there is getting louder, <laugh>, you have to correct your dog. And there are lots of ways you can do that. You can use, uh, a leash pop, um, preferably on a prong collar, because the truth is, if you have your leash attached to a flat collar, unless your dog's really sensitive, they're not really gonna notice it, especially if they're excited.

09:00 — Kati describes leash pops, rolled-up towels, and e-collars as correction options for unwanted behaviors.

So it is important that you're able to deliver a meaningful leash pop, okay? A leash pop, a bonker, which is just a rolled-up towel, okay? No lead weights in it or anything.

Just a rolled-up towel and you kind of bonk your dog on the head firmly. Um, or an e-collar, which is the most practical way for most people to correct these kinds of simple, unwanted behaviors. Um, and you can even do it at a distance, which is very helpful. So really important, guys, if your dog has bad behaviors, that you correct those behaviors, okay? So you can teach your dog what to do all day long, but it just simply isn't going to eliminate the stuff that you don't like. So I'm all for teaching the dog what to do.

I think that's a great, in most cases I do that as well, especially since once you do correct a dog and they can't do their old stuff anymore, sometimes they look a little bit lost, like, well, what am I supposed to do? So having something in place already that you've taught them is very helpful.

It gives them something else to do, something else to focus on, and they don't feel like they're just kind of walking around unsure what they're supposed to be doing. So by all means, you know, if your dog jumps on people, teach them to sit, but you still have to tell them not to jump on people, okay? Same thing with bolting through open doors, right? That can be super unsafe. That could cost your dog their life, potentially, depending on, you know, where you're, where you live. Um, but if you teach your dog to sit at the door, that's great, but it doesn't teach them not to fly through the door.

It just doesn't. So once you correct your dog for going through that door without permission, now you can. If you want them to sit at the door, teach them to sit at the door, that's great, right? You need both. Unfortunately, we're living in a world where everybody just wants to rush to the rewards and the fun stuff and the easy stuff and show the dog what we want. And there's this underlying sort of lie, frankly, that your dog, if your dog knows what you want, they will do it. Which everybody should know is bullshit. Okay?

I'm sorry, but that is complete bullshit. So to be frank,

how many times have you asked your dog to do something that you know they know, and they don't do it? That's normal. That doesn't mean your dog is bad. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with your training except your dog just hasn't had the proper training. That involves accountability, that involves corrections. So everything just kind of stays optional. And I think that's really the point here. It's like teaching your dog to do other things doesn't leave you with any kind of requirement for your dog.

It doesn't leave you with any kind of a standard. It's still just kind of up to the dog, right? So of course you're not getting what you want. That's normal <laugh>, that's totally normal. So, and I am gonna do an episode talking about precisely how to correct your dog so you'll know exactly what that sequence is.

And unfortunately, every dog is super, super different and super individual in every case, a super individual. So I can't tell you exactly what it should look like with your dog, uh, but I can definitely give you a framework to operate out of. So I will absolutely do that in one of my upcoming episodes. But, um, let's talk about some other reasons why it's super obvious cookies won't work. So number one, teaching an alternative behavior does not stop behaviors, right? Number two, saying if your dog knows what to do, that means they'll just do it. That's not true either.

Why would that be? Like, why would that be true? Just think about it. Why would that be true? Your dog is a living, breathing organism and they don't have the cognitive ability and the emotions of humans. So when you have a child, for instance, I mean, even children certainly don't do things they know you want them to do, but they might, you know, if they've been parented properly, they might get to, to a point, most of them do, where they're gonna do it when they know you want them to because they want you to be happy, right?

13:00 — Kati distinguishes dogs enjoying praise and affection from wanting their owners to be happy.

They want you to be happy, they want you to be proud of them. They want your approval. Dogs, not so much. So some dogs really enjoy that affection and that little party like, yeah, I did the right thing. But a lot of them don't. A lot of them don't. And your dog doesn't actually care about your happiness. They don't have the ability to care about your happiness. So you're humanizing your dog when you say, oh, my dog is eager to please. So I like to think most of the time when people say that, what they mean is their dog really enjoys the affection and, and the praise and the party that you have when they do something right?

But a lot of people, unfortunately, I think, really believe that their dog wants to see them happy, and they just simply don't have the ability to care <laugh>.

So that's normal. Um, why else won't cookies work? Here's why else. Cookies won't always work. So your dog being the selfish animal that they are, which is normal, we just discussed that, right? They have, they don't have the ability to care about your happiness. They're pursuing the thing that makes them happy, um, or makes them the most fulfilled, might be a better way, um, to look at that. So for instance, if you have a really reactive dog, and so many people struggle with reactivity, if you have a super reactive dog, right? Who's just, every time you pass a dog, they're just right to the end of the leash, up on their hind legs, barking, lunging.

Maybe they're growling, who knows? But if you've got one of those dogs, it just comes naturally to them. It is in their DNA to do that. It feels good.

Those pathways in the brain are just wired to kick into gear and make those connections and do that behavior when they see a dog. And so you pull out your cookie and let me, I mean, most dogs are like just middle finger all. They don't care. They've hung up the phone, man, they've hung up the phone, they're not listening, they're not looking, they don't even hear you. They don't even know you're there. And you know, you're over there waving cookies and biscuits, right? People have chicken legs. <laugh> I heard someone say, oh, bring a, bring a rabbit <laugh>.

Like, what? I, you know, you'd think that was a joke, but I actually don't think it was. So this is where people end up going when they refuse to provide their dog with any kind of uncomfortable consequence for their behavior. So now you're on the side of the road with Cujo at the end of their leash, which is dangerous, I might add.

16:00 — Kati describes reactive dogs taking food from handlers and then returning to barking and…

Okay? And you're digging through your purse for chicken legs and the dog still doesn't care. Most of them still aren't gonna care, right? And when they do care, when they do care enough to come back to you and peel themselves away from that dog and take the chicken leg, when they do care enough, guess what happens? The broccoli and chocolate cake is what happens. They come back, they get their chicken leg, and then they go right back to being Cujo <laugh>. So, oh God. So it doesn't work, guys. It doesn't work. And I have no problem at all with people trying that stuff.

Everyone's on their own journey, you know, and some dogs, like I said, you might get some traction with it. So go ahead, try it if you wanna try it, but just know if it's not working, that's normal. That's just normal. Um, and you just have to learn how to correct your dog.

So I highly recommend prong collars and e-collars, um, because like I said, tons in my last episode, tons of versatility with those tools. You can be very gentle, you can be very firm. Um, they're great, but you do have to learn how to use them. They're not magic. You can't just slap them on the dog and expect to get results. Um, so, you know, do your research, watch some videos or read some books or hire a trainer would be the best option. Um, but negative consequences, cookies don't work. So all these people out there that are telling you, oh, you know, you should only use reward-based training.

They just, they're just wrong. They're just wrong. And I feel very comfortable saying that because I've been doing this long enough and I have enough experience to know that what I do works, it works. I always get traction, right?

I'm not saying every dog I've ever worked with is completely cured, but most of them are <laugh>. Most of them are. And the ones that aren't are still in a much better place than they were. Okay? I know that firsthand. So if you ask any of these people that are shaming you for correcting your dog or considering correcting your dog or using tools that they don't like—those people, most of the time, if you ask them about their experience using or doing any of that stuff, they don't have any. They don't have any, which I get, right?

'Cause I think these things are bad. And so they haven't done them. But it's like, if you haven't done it, but can you speak about it at all? All you can do is repeat what you've been told. That's it. That's all you can do. You are limited to that.

You have to at least admit that you can only repeat what you've been told until you've done it or you've been present to watch. Watch what happens in real time. See what happens in the moment. See what happens later. How do things evolve? If you haven't taken the time to do that, then I'm sorry, but I fail to believe that you actually care about anybody besides yourself. I don't think you care about the dogs. I don't think you care about other people. I think it's mostly about you trying to look virtuous <laugh>, right? So those people that are shaming you, it's not about you.

19:00 — Kati concludes that treats should reward better decisions after unwanted behaviors have been addressed.

It's not about your dog, and they don't care about your dog.

They're just trying to be morally superior. So don't even give those people a second thought. Alright, guys, so takeaway today is cookies alone won't work. Save the cookies for after. When we're talking about bad behaviors anyway, save the cookies for after. Okay? Once your dog is doing better, even then, you gotta be careful. But we're not gonna get into depth with that, right? Save the cookies for when your dog is making better decisions, preferably for when you can tell that it's easy for them to make better decisions. Then reward the better behavior. Okay? So too many people are putting the cart before the horse and they're trying to reward their dog before they've knocked out the bad stuff.

Alright, guys, that's it for today's episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. Until next time, happy practicing, and I look forward to seeing you all again here real soon.