We Are Creating Needy Codependent Dogs

00:00 — Kati introduces behavior modification and state-of-mind training as the podcast’s focus.

Speaker 1: Welcome to Off Leash and Unfiltered Trigger Warning. I'm Kati Peppe, delivering the Truth in Dog Training.

Speaker 1: Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Off Leash and Unfiltered. I'm Kati Peppe, owner of Diamond Canine Dog Training in Southern Maine. Uh, we do eco training. Um, specialty is behavior modification and state of mind work. Um, and we also do puppy stuff too. So, um, puppy raising, puppy manners, and, um, awfully obedience with our, our eco training as well. So that's who we are, it's what we do. And this podcast is, uh, something I do to, uh, hopefully benefit the masses in some way. So it just gives me a way to reach more people and kind of talk about all the same things I'm talking about with my clients day in and day out.

Speaker 1: Um, because that's the stuff that's obviously the most relevant, uh, to most people out there. So these are the conversations that I'm having every day, um, with the people that are here doing training with us.

Speaker 1: And today I wanted to talk about codependency <laugh>. So this has been, um, a really common thing that we see, uh, where, you know, dogs have separation issues, confinement issues, um, sometimes you see it sort of manifest in a sort of reactivity. Um, and all this stuff can just kind of be tied together and it's, it's all kind of messy and blah, right? So it's not always super cut and dried and straightforward and black and white, like this is this issue, this is this issue, and this is this issue. Like oftentimes these issues are all just kind of squished together in one box and sort of tied together and, and everything kind of affects everything else.

Speaker 1: So, so there's that, right? There's no one way that this looks. But, um, one example that I can give, which is very recent, um, I, I had a board and trained dog, um, super recently, and he was with us for three weeks for reactivity and confinement separation issues.

Speaker 1: So, and lemme tell you what he did phenomenal. So we did see the reactivity, uh, we corrected him and he pretty much knocked that off immediately. So that was actually very easy. Um, I won't say it was gone completely. We still saw signs of it and we addressed that. Um, you know, but he would normally like just full out sort of lunge, pull and, and bark, um, especially when he saw other dogs. And, and so we got that under control very, very quickly. Um, and after that we just had to address kind of the staring and tracking and the arousal.

03:00 — A dog’s reactivity improved, but staring, tracking, and arousal around other dogs still required…

Speaker 1: So like when he saw a dog, we would still see him perk up too much. Those ears would be standing right on top of his head and he would track them with his eyes. So we told him not to do that, right? Because that's super important.

Speaker 1: So I wanna, I don't wanna get too far off into a tangent of dealing with reactivity, um, but definitely a topic for another day. Maybe my next one will be just that, because that is such a common common thread, um, out there with dog owners. Like that's something so many people and dogs are struggling with. Uh, so we'll do that one next. But anyways, my point was going to be, you know, we got the reactivity under control pretty much right away. But the, the separation and confinement was, it was the same deal. Like his owners couldn't leave the house, they couldn't leave the house without him.

Speaker 1: So if they were going somewhere where they could not take him, they had to have a dog sitter, right? One of them always had to be home with him or they had to hire someone to be home with him, or he had to go with them, like leaving him alone in the house. It just wasn't an option. I mean, they could, but when they came back they would see that he was super stressed, panting, shaking, peeing, pooping in the kennel, that sort of thing. Um, he would try to dig his way out, you know, all the stuff.

Speaker 1: And dogs can hurt themselves doing that. So they couldn't leave him alone. And you know, the funny thing is we just never had that problem. We just didn't, I'm not gonna say that he didn't fuss at all ever, but I don't actually remember it. So it was nothing super notable.

Speaker 1: So it possible, um, and I think I might vaguely remember this, but you know, this is what happens. Like dogs come in and even if they do display this stuff a lot of the times, like we're able to just knock it out so fast that if you ask me, you know, three weeks later when the dog's going home, I can't even remember them ever doing it because it's been so long. And so let's just say that he did act up a little bit when he first came in, in the kennel, I would say no. And I would correct him for that behavior.

Speaker 1: I would provide an uncomfortable consequence, AKA punishment for that behavior, right? And that's what punishment means. That's what a punisher is. It eliminates a behavior, it reduces and hopefully eliminates a behavior that's literally all punishment means. It's not to be mean, it's not to be militant, it's not to be abusive, right? Big difference. So people are equating the two nowadays, they're not the same.

Speaker 1: The only punishers we use are safe, humane, effective means of correction, usually an eco 'cause. It's super, super easy and practical. And it has a wide spectrum of intensity. So you can adjust it to the dog. Some dogs are very, very sensitive. They don't need a ton. Some dogs aren't sensitive at all and you could turn it way up, right? So this tool is great because it gives you that flexibility. So I would say no, when he acted up in the kennel, I'd turn up the e-collar to something I know he finds intolerable and I would tap the button and provide that correction or maybe hold the button down for a second, right?

Speaker 1: Because those quick taps are really easy to just blow off. Sometimes they're so fast the dog hardly even notices it. So you wanna make sure that you actually provide a correction.

07:00 — Stopping kennel behavior with an e-collar is only one part of resolving confinement problems.

Speaker 1: And that was it guys. You just stopped acting up in the kennel. But there is more to it than that. There's more to it than that. And that's the piece I really wanna focus on today. 'cause here's the thing, not everyone has an eco. Some people might be at a point in their life where they're living check to check, they can't afford to run out and buy a good e-collar, in which case I say make a plan and save for it and get it. 'cause if you need it, you need it. And it's a game changer.

Speaker 1: And we prioritize the things that are important, okay? But if you don't have an e-collar, you can't run out and get one today, you can still do this other stuff. And that's what I wanna talk about. This quote unquote other stuff is also the reason that the training falls apart sometimes when the dog goes home.

Speaker 1: That's not to say everything falls apart, but there's regression things start to come back. So the dog I was just discussing, the reason I chose him is because that's the boat they're in right now. So I got a message from them a couple days after he went home about how amazing he was doing okay? And now at this point, he's probably been home a couple weeks and I got another message that things are going backwards, <laugh>, okay? So they'll put him in his kennel, they'll go out, and when they come back, he's peed in his kennel.

Speaker 1: Now why is that? Well, I can't say for sure, right? 'cause I'm not there. I'm not there. But at this point in my career, I've dealt with this enough that I have a pretty good idea of the things we tend to do when the dog goes home that result in some pretty sometimes serious regression. Now we have the obedience piece to this too, right? Which does play a role. But honestly, when it comes to this specific stuff, it's probably less than 50%. But I usually consider, you know, behavioral modification training. Like yes, we teach the dog obedience, we hold them to a very high standard, and that's half the training.

Speaker 1: The other half of the training is

10:00 — Kati divides training into obedience, daily lifestyle, and direct punishment of unwanted behaviors.

Speaker 1: How we live with the dog. Actually, let me start over. Let's say the obedience is a third of the training. How we live with the dog is a third of the training. And then punishing those behaviors that we don't want directly. That's a third of the training, right? So we have three very important pieces here. Now, the obedience piece is important, um, because you can leverage that to help you, but it does take time and it does take skill to time investment. You can't do that overnight. So you can't, right now, you can't take this podcast, listen to it, and then go home and just tomorrow and state that you can't.

Speaker 1: You can start it, but it's gonna take you some time to properly train your dog on obedience, provide the accountability, and get that to become truly reliable. That's a process. It takes a little time, okay? But the other two pieces you can do right away. Now, as far as the punishment piece, right? Obedience is a third, punishment is a third. And then how we live with the dog is a third punishment piece. There's several ways you can do that too. Most practical ways with an eco. Again, if you don't have one, you can't run out and get one today.

Speaker 1: Maybe you can't do that piece either right now,

Speaker 1: Okay? You can, there are other ways. But the third piece, which is why I'm doing this podcast you couldn't do today. Like it, there doesn't have to be a delay. There doesn't have to be a building up of, right? There's no real training involved. There's no time investment. You just do it. You go home, you change your habits, you do it right? And that might be the hardest part for people <laugh>, because you have to change your habits. But what do I mean by that third piece where I say change how you live with the dog, right?

Speaker 1: So I'm gonna use a word here that is so overused at this point in the dog training industry. And for me included, like I've, you could play a drinking game listening to this podcast and be like, all right, everybody drink every time she says the word structure. Well, here it comes again, <laugh>. Okay? So the third piece that we're focusing on today, which is how you live with your dog, involves structure.

Speaker 1: Your dog should not be. And this doesn't necessarily go for everybody, although it would be my preference. Like I wouldn't, I probably would never live with a dog where I just let them run around and do whatever they wanted all the time. We would use at least some level of structure, right? So your dog shouldn't just be running around, totally autonomous, making all of their own choices all of the time, right? But so in the case of this dog that I was just telling you about, people go home and they're expected to use a very high level of structure with their dog, right?

13:00 — High structure means directing dogs to place cots, kennels, downs, and controlled walks.

Speaker 1: Their dog is on their place cot, their dog is in their kennel, their dog is in a down, their dog is on a walk with them in a heel. Yes, they can like take time out to just play with their dog.

Speaker 1: But even that is structured, it's supervised. And if they ask the dog for something, the dog has to do it. So the dog isn't just wandering around the house deciding where to lay or who they wanna go get attention from, or what toy they're gonna play with. They're being told where to be and what to be doing throughout the day. But then what happens is, after a few days, a week, a couple weeks, depending on the dog, we tell people, okay, then you can start to loosen up your structure a little bit. Meaning you can start giving your dog short periods of freedom.

Speaker 1: Just keep an eye on them, right? And you can gradually increase the freedom slowly each day.

Speaker 1: But once people start giving their dog freedom, it's too easy to just slip right back into our old ways, right? Not necessarily intentionally, but because that's just what we've always done. This is how we've always lived with the dog. And so once you start to introduce those old habits and your dog's free again, and they're kind of walking around the house, suddenly you just kind of forget that like you're supposed to be still utilizing a high level of structure. Or, and this is absolutely a thing too, too. You think dog's doing fine, they don't need it,

Speaker 1: Right? The dog's doing fine, they're doing great. We don't need the structure. But here's the thing, they're wrong. <laugh>, okay? If you think that you're probably wrong and you're gonna go backwards, right? Because your dog will do the same thing humans do. It's like once you start giving them that freedom, they also slip back into the way they used to live, right? The old life. And with that comes the old mindset and the old behaviors. So you start letting your dog just wander around the house, which seems harmless, except that their brain now shifts back into those old channels.

Speaker 1: It's just too easy, right? Because they're now doing the old stuff that they used to do more than they're doing the new stuff, right? So they're now rehearsing old stuff and they're not rehearsing the new stuff. So what do you think is gonna happen? All the old behaviors that are attached to that old stuff and that old way of living are of course going to regenerate. Okay? Of course they are. It's like if you're trying to quit drinking and you don't go into the bar anymore 'cause you're abstaining from drinking, you don't wanna do that anymore.

Speaker 1: So you stay outta the bar and then you know, because your friends are there, you just start going to the bar every day. How do you think that's gonna pan out?

Speaker 1: Now, maybe this would be a foolish idea, by the way, but maybe if you just went in for 10 minutes and then the next day you went in for 10 minutes, then you took a day off and then, you know, and maybe eventually you could spend all day every day in the bar and not drink. But that's not gonna be easy, okay? So if you just throw your dog back into freedom 110%, you should expect that all the old behaviors are gonna start to come back. 'cause you just thrust them back into that world again, right?

17:00 — Returning a dog immediately to full freedom can reactivate behaviors associated with its former…

Speaker 1: It's not that there's necessarily a problem with freedom in general as much as it is just, it's how the brain works, right? Old life, old habits, old behaviors.

Speaker 1: You want your dog to do new stuff, practice new stuff. But whether your dog's done a board and train or not, whether or not your dog's had formal training or not, if you have behavioral issues with your dog, if your dog has confinement and separation issues, these are things you need to do. Structure, okay? Start telling your dog where to be and what to do. If they don't have the obedience foundation to do that, then you need to use management leash. Kennels, okay? Um, you can put your dog in the kennel if they act up, you can say no, you can go bonk the kennel if you don't have an e-collar.

Speaker 1: That's huge. In addition to that, though, and this one I think is, this one's really big, man, this one's gonna probably hit home for a lot of people. Um, at least once you start paying attention to it, I think you'll be kind of blown away. A lot of you, um, with how much affection we give our dogs. So that's a big piece. So one of my first pieces of advice to them when they messaged me and said, you know, that they had regression going on, stop giving your dog so much affection.

Speaker 1: When owners come in here with their dogs, it's one of the things that we notice, of course right away, um, is how constant the affection is with our dog. Constant touching, constant stroking, constant petting, constant talking. It's incessant. And I don't have a problem with affection, but constant affection can be very damaging. We don't even know we're doing it half the time and we're doing it mostly for us, not even for the dog, right? It helps soothe our anxiety. So a lot of times when people come in here, they're naturally, they're nervous, right? It's like a first appointment and all that nervousness comes out and stroke the dog, stroke the dog, stroke the dog, right?

Speaker 1: And the dog will whine or maybe even growl at something or just be pacing and they'll just stroke the dog, stroke the dog, stroke the dog, reduce that affection. Guys, oh man, that's a big one. That's a huge one. So you create a codependent dog because when they're with you, it's constant attention, attention, attention, attention, attention. Then when you leave, they don't know what the fuck to do.

20:00 — Comforting whining, pacing, or growling with repeated affection reinforces attention-seeking and creates dependency.

Speaker 1: Their whole world just fell apart. Everything is gone, right? Because when they're with you, it's attention, attention, attention, attention. And then you leave. So exist together separately a little bit. Make sure that your dog spends some time in their kennel even when you are home and awake. Okay? So everyone's like, oh, my dog's in the kennel when I go to bed at night, or my dog's in the kennel if I leave. It's like, yeah, great. Put your dog in the kennel. When you're fricking home for the love of God, it's not gonna kill 'em. Let them see you doing something besides paying attention to them <laugh>, okay?

Speaker 1: And put them in a position where they can't just go inject themselves into whatever it is that you're doing. They can't follow you to the bathroom. They can't demand affection or food. They can't constantly ask to be let outside. Put 'em in their kennel, okay? And when your dog's not in the kennel and they're not on their place caught or whatever, and you do give them a little bit of freedom, don't reward them every single time. They demand your attention, right? It's like we're teaching an addiction.

Speaker 1: The love and affection and pets and treats. They're just on tap, they're on tap. Dog comes up, looks at you, you touch it, dog comes up, barks at you, you touch it, dog comes up, jumps on you, you touch it, you talk to it, you feed it every single time. Now, I'm not saying you do this, right? But it's very common, super, super common. Even when people know on a rational level that they shouldn't be rewarding that behavior, they still do it. And I'll take it a step further. Some people even will push the dog off them, but they don't realize they're still rewarding it, right?

Speaker 1: So it's unintentional, but it doesn't matter. The results the same because it's a soft push with soft hands. And we use our hands for affection. So the dog either feels like they're getting affection or you're playing a game, but it's still a reward, it's still a tension, right? So it just needs to be corrected. You need to get rid of those mixed signals and avoid rewarding your dog every single time they come into your space. And even if they're polite, so to speak, even if you don't mind it, which seems to be another thing for people.

Speaker 1: It's like, well, I don't really mind it. It's like, well, it's not about you <laugh>, right? We're trying to change your dog's state of mind.

Speaker 1: And you can only do that by making changes in your relationship to, to change their state of mind, how they view you. So even if your dog is polite, so to speak, and they just, you know, they're a good dog, they, they've been on good behavior, they come over, they sit next to you, they want to be touched. I'm not saying you can't touch them. I'm saying don't do it every single time.

Speaker 1: Have some boundaries, have some balance, right? Maybe I'm gonna pet you this time, maybe I'm not, right. And if you've got a dog that's a little pushy, which the dog we've been talking about can be a little pushy, and he'll come up and he'll do this sort of hugging motion, we call it hugging, where he comes up and he, he'll stand up on his hind legs and put his front paws right around you. And it's really, it's cute, right? 'cause again, it looks like a hug, but it's really, really pushy and needy. Give me attention, servant.

Speaker 1: And it looks so it's rewarded 100% of the time. Now, with me, when he was here, he was corrected for that behavior because I recognize it as problematic to his state of mind. So you gotta look at the big picture. You gotta look at the dog and what is it they struggle with, right? So if this dog had no behavioral issues, maybe it's not a big deal, but he does. And the specific behavioral issues that they have are separation and confinement. He's a needy dog. So if you reward neediness all day, what do you think is gonna happen when you put him in the kennel?

Speaker 1: You go to leave, right? He's gonna have a meltdown. So to summarize, if you have a dog

Speaker 1: That's on the needy side, right? That tends to be a little anxious. It doesn't like to be left alone, there's three pieces that I would normally implement to help fix that situation. The obedience piece, the punishment piece, and the structure piece. And we focus on the structure piece for today. And so just to recap what that means, tell your dog where to be and what to be doing more of the time. Use a tether, use a leash. Use your kennel. Require calmness. Okay? If you put them on their bed and you tie them to something with their leash, make them stay there and be calm.

26:00 — For separation and confinement cases, tell the dog where to be and what to…

Speaker 1: If you put them in their kennel, make them stay there and be calm throughout the day. Do not give your dog constant affection. Balance things out. Pay attention to how much you touch your dog and how you touch your dog too. So constant softness, constant excitement, or not generally productive, okay? But don't constantly touch your dog, especially when they solicit it. They come up to you to get affection. Don't give it to them every time. So you have to create, um, you have to solidify the idea that you guys are two separate entities, okay?

Speaker 1: And you want your dog to be full and confident and stable when you are not present. So you're going to have to require your dog to be full and confident and stable even when you are present and not paying attention to them. That seems like that would be the first step, right? So just way, way less affection and affection and attention that's talking. It's touching, it's eye contact, it's excitement, it's all that stuff.

Speaker 2: Less, less,

Speaker 1: You know? And if your dog does have serious behaviors that you need to disagree with, that's going to be critical as well. So you have to, um, find a way to provide a safe, effective punishment to get rid of those behaviors. Now, if your dog has extreme separation anxiety, you need, you need a formal training program, you really do. It's not to say you can't do it yourself. You can do the research, have at it. I'm all about that, right? But just, you know, using a leash and using a kennel is not gonna fix your problem.

Speaker 1: Like you, you really need to dig in there and, uh, jump in the deep end if you've got a dog with serious behavioral issues. But you know, if your dog's just a little whiny, a little needy, um, they tend to pee in the crate when you're gone, or like that sort of thing, like that's something you might be able to just get under control by just changing how you live with your dog. Stop living with them in a manner that makes them completely autonomous and constantly over aroused. They make all their own decisions. They're always overexcited.

Speaker 1: They demand affection whenever they want it. And you give it to them and you're always touching them. Live with your dog differently.

Speaker 1: Control where they go and what they do. Use your kennel. Stop touching them and talking to them so much and see if that doesn't make a difference. And we'll talk about reactivity next time. I look forward to it. Thanks for listening, guys, and I'll see you on the next one. We're gonna talk about reactivity. Bye.